10 Comments »

The Ref said:
That Lebron debate was off the hook.
# 9 November 2009 at 11:05 am

G said:
Can’t wait til he wins the chip, and I’m proven right.
Tayshaun Prince to the Cav’s midseason? I like it.
# 9 November 2009 at 2:18 pm

The Ref said:
That contradicts what you said on the podcast, because Tayshaun Prince is not a pure shooter. He is a great defender and a solid finsiher around the basket, but he is not what the Cavaliers need. Or better yet, Lebron can’t play with him. The King is desperately trying to find his Scotie Pippen
# 9 November 2009 at 6:02 pm

G said:
(sigh)
Tayshaun Prince is a Scottie Pippen in terms of versatility. And Prince is an EXCELLENT spot up shooter.
I feel like he is what the Cavs need in terms of players who can play around good players. Prince has played with plenty of All-Stars and is totally content playing his role.
Lastly, it doesn’t contradict what I said on the podcast, because saying Tayshaun Prince would fit well with the Cavs (in my opinion) doesn’t have anything to do with me saying they could use a pure shooter.
But since we want to attempt to call out contradictions…..
You’re statistics on LeBron not making other players better is flawed, my friend.
Mo Williams:
07-08 Milwaukee: 66 games, 17.2ppg 6.3apg 3.5rpg (38% from 3 land)
08-09 Cleveland: 81 games, 17.8 ppg 4.1apg 3.4 rpg (43% from 3 land)
Hmm. Seems like he put up the same numbers on both teams.
Delonte West:
07/08 Seattle: 6.8ppg, 3.2 apg
07/08 Cleveland 10.3ppg, 4.5apg
Hmm. The same season he was traded to Cleveland, his stats improved.
You mention Larry Hughes as someone who got worse with LeBron. But to be honest, Larry Hughes got off to an injury plagued start with the Cavs playing only 36 games in his first season (05-06) with the squad. The next season (06-07), he was healthy and played the whole season as the Cavs lost in the Finals to the Spurs. Needless to say, he fit well enough for the Cavs to make it to the Finals.
Sorry if I was long winded, but I just wanted to go a little in depth to explain my points, which I obviously have to do from now on.
# 9 November 2009 at 6:47 pm

The Basher said:
DAMMMMMMMMMN. That’s some good stuff right there. To steal a quote from JB… “Gettttttt chaaaaaa gaaaaaaaaaame upppppp.” G pullin’ out all the stops with the stats right there!
# 9 November 2009 at 7:28 pm

The Ref said:
Well it seems you got me…oh just kidding. You are forgetting a few things my dear friend:
Delonte West barely played for the Sonics, he started on Cleveland getting more minutes and more shots. Therefore, if we want to use common sense, he would score more. That’s why his numbers have been the same throughout his career, even at Boston, where he was the third option to Paul Pierce and Al Jefferson.
Larry Hughes did nothing to get them to Finals, that was all Lebron, which I stated in the podcast. Hughes averaged almost identical statistics when he was hurt the year before. Actually, his numbers went down. Then, Hughes was even quoted saying that Lebron wants me to do everything but play my game.
I never said Mo Willams was bad last year, I said he started to struggle against the Magic and that trend is continuing this year. He looks lost, he has always looked lost since the Conference Finals. If you watch him play now compared to last season, you are watching two completely different players. Just like Larry Hughes.
You also didn’t mention The King’s affect on Wally Szczerbiak or Damon Jones who are spot up pure shooters and they still did not work out in Lebron’s system.
I can appreciate you looking up the numbers, but did you honestly think I din’t know all this before I stated what I said on the podcast. Oh, G I was waiting for someone to do their research, and call me out, because my point is proven even more so… Thanks to you.
You have a lot to learn my friend.
# 10 November 2009 at 6:28 am

G said:
Saw this coming…
1. So since Delonte’s “numbers have been the same throughout his career,” you’re saying he’s playing just fine under LeBron. A thing you keep forgetting with Delonte and Mo Williams, is that typically when players are on worse teams, they put up better numbers because they play bigger roles on their teams. Delonte and Mo are on a much better team than in their past, and are still putting up numbers they always have. (Mo Williams is currently averaging 15 a game, and 4 rebounds…7 games into the season. Far from struggling compared to his usual numbers).
2. Damon Jones started 66 games for the Heat. He had 7 starts upon coming to the Cavs. So “using common sense….he would score LESS).
3. Wally Szczerbiak has been on a downslide since he’s left Minnesota. His first year in Cleveland he only played 25 games, and had only 1 start the next season. He also shot under 40% in his 2 years on the team. LeBron can’t make peoples’ jumpshots for them.
4. Larry Hughes is the only player you could possibly say LeBron made worse, even though I still don’t buy it. I love the use of a hearsay quote on how Larry felt about LeBron haha. Great data, seriously. Larry Hughes peaked in Washington when he was the product of a dynamic offense run by Eddie Jordan. Ever since he’s left, combined with injury troubles, he’s never been the same, plain and simple.
Seems like your reduced minutes worked in my favor. Thanks. I look forward to learning more, since I have so much to learn.
If anyone’s bored, check out http://heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com/
(yes, thats a real website)
# 10 November 2009 at 12:17 pm

The Ref said:
It looks like you don’t get it.
I never said Delonte West was the problem and that is a terrible reason to back up the Mo Williams argument because he was brought to Cleveland to have the SAME role, no wait, a BIGGER role than he had at Milwaukee, and Lebron isn’t allowing him to play his game. He looks lost and his numbers are starting to suffer.
Wally Szczerbiak and Damon Jones were brought to Cleveland to be spot up shooters and it didn’t work. Wally was supposed to be a Bill Paxton or a Steve Kerr, but Lebron couldn’t help. Damon Jones even more so because he was young. Jones was the hottest three point shooter after he helped Miami win a championship. He was supposed to be that pure shooter, but it didn’t work out.
Oh and your minutes working for you, hahaha. The difference between Miami and Cleveland was 6 minutes for Jones, and he dropped 5 points on average the next season. Hmmm yes, that works for your argument, absolutely. So Damon Jones lose 5 points in 6 minutes, wow he must be a great player. This is compared to the West argument who had 11+ minute difference from Seattle and Cleveland and only four point increase. Gee Gally G, you really got me.
The Larry Hughes’ quote was paraphrased, but thats exactly what he was saying. It was all over ESPN when it happened, and then the Cavaliers shipped him off to Chicago soon after.
I hope you are learning a lot, and more importantly, don’t come after me unless you know the facts. It’s embarrassing.
# 10 November 2009 at 1:00 pm

The Basher said:
I still don’t see how this is LeBron’s fault? He is a top 5 creator by dribble penetration in basketball. How is it his fault that Wally and Jones can’t hit shots? I think Damon Jones is so overrated. He was never good before that one year with the Heat, never good after and never will be good.
Did you ever thing maybe it’s Mike Brown’s system? LeBron doesn’t draw up the plays as far as I know.
I honestly believe more than anything, with the players you are coming here Ref, that it was all a fluke in contract years. Mo Williams is the best player out of Hughes, Jones, Wally, West and himself and I don’t think he is a great player by any means. He is average, that’s it.
I just think it’s unfair to say that LeBron is the problem. Ask yourself, what would the Cavs be without LeBron but still with Hughes, Jones, Wally, West and Mo Williams on the team. I’d say they are a 35 win team at best.
# 10 November 2009 at 1:32 pm

G said:
Who said Mo was supposed to have a bigger role in Cleveland than in Milwaukee? Bill Simmons maybe? You?
I see your point on the minutes with these guys, but at the same time, being a starter compared to coming off the bench is a whole different game. You may play as much time as a starter one night and then not play at all the next.
Who the hell is Bill Paxton? The actor? Are you referring to Jim or his brother John Paxson? Jim Paxson was once the alltime leading scorer for the Portland Trailblazers or might still be (I’m not sure), so I doubt the Cavs were looking for that in Wally. His brother, who I believe you were referring to was a career 7 points per game player. His claim to fame was that one game winning shot. I’d take Wally over John Paxson any day of the week. Steve Kerr? Its unfair to try and compare Damon Jones or Wally to him. Steve Kerr was a byproduct of playing on some of the greatest teams in the history of the NBA.
My whole argument is that its the Cleveland front office who need to do a better job at getting players that fit their system. Saying it’s LeBron not making his teammates better isn’t true in my opinion. LeBron makes his players better because of his leadership and confidence in them.
Here’s an article with actual real quotes from players, about how LeBron makes them better:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-cavaliers060207&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
# 10 November 2009 at 1:56 pm

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